Dear Palmier,
Thanks for your answer.
Yes, you gave many right and valid points in your answer. However in order to have a nice discussion, I will try to polarise a little to make our differences in views clearer. I will go ahead point by point and hope you take it as a sports man:
1- Thx to share your thoughts. Meanwhile I am not so sure that the aim of the naval forces is to build navygroups with heavy fregates. I agree that the weak point of the algerian navy is it's lack of long range missiles (sea/air and Sea/sea) on its vessels. This can be solved with the new acquired LPDs and Mekos heavily armed.
Starting with the MEKO, for what I can see there is no reason to believe they are heavily armed... The Umkontho SAM is weak and the upgraded versions (new IR, R with booster) which we will likely get are still not a long range system. Also the sea-giraffe radar does not allow for very long range acquisitions.
The purpose and role of the Meko:
The MEKO has mostly an anti-ship and anti-sub role, with some modest air defence capability. I think that in such roles, you want to disperse your ships in a certain way to cover a wider sea area in order to enhance the chances to find the enemy. (This will strech the defense umbrella of the LDP, but come later to that point)
Few points to remind:
Meko does not allow for enough air cover/Meko cannot defend itself enough against an (massive) airstrike
Meko is a ship type for ASW and anti-ship roles. In these roles will take place in blue water.
(Same points would apply for the tiger class corvettes. The I-mast radar does not really allow for long range acquisitions and is more designed for the mid-ranges)
The LDP is another calibre, given its ASW suite which is rather unusual for an LDP and the top-end self-defence suit against air-threats.
If you buy one or even two of those ships there must be an intention behind it. Clearly such a ship is a blue water ship and is intended to stay long in far away sea areas.
Purpose and role of the LDP:
Given the high end self defence suits it has it is designed to operate in high threat environments. I see it mostly in ASW and air defence roles. As a mother ship to command other ships around it, while controlling sea areas. Not that much for massive landing operations, as it is just too small. But excellent as a helicopter hub to allow the fleet to posses more helicopters in the air, than the enemies in order to acquire information superiority and therefore the cutting edge in winning any naval war.
Few points to remind:
The LDP will operate is Blue waters, as the leading ship of the fleet.
In many/all navies such ships are usually protected by few subs and air defence destroyers. I agree it can defend itself. But what about the helicopters and other ships which might have to operate around it. As the only ship with an SAM of over 20Km range in a whole fleet this appears to me still too weak.
Main asset would be the helicopter hub options it posses, together with the EPAR/Aster30 suite.
2- Moreover I am not sure that the strategic aim of the algerian naval forces is to build naval groups able to project themselves on long range missions. The algerian navy will be more than happy if it succeeds in perfectly defending its maritime territory, going from a coastal force to a sea going naval force and for this no need of Perry class fregates but a serial of medium class fregates or heavily armed corvettes are more than enough.
The Algerians just signed a contract for an LDP; therefore the purpose of the LDP is to project power. Given its equipment on board, there is no reason to come to another conclusion. If it would be purely for defence roles in brown waters, then more S-300 and more corvettes would be enough for the OBJ. Clearly the Meko and the LDP exceed those requirements with their capability to stand in a sea area for long time and to conduct autonomous operations.
Few points to remind:
The purchase of the LDP does indicate that the intention not to operate close to the Algerian shore. It is a blue water and a long range ship. Therefore another strong ship like the Perry class would make sense to mutually enhance operations and secure each other.
3- The algerian navy is conceived in dynamic relationship with the other armed forces and particularly the AIR DEFENSE and the coastal defense. In this configuration our naval forces are more a first line of defense than something else that acts under the coverage of our land radars and our air defense.
If there would be this concept/view adopted by the OBJ, we would not purchase the Meko and the LDP. Tiger corvettes are enough. Therefore this is false.
We do purchase Meko and we do purchase LDP and therefore those units will not operate under the umbrella of coastal air defence.
Those are blue water ships and operate independently. However if you take into account that the air defence of the Meko is rather weak than strong and that Asters of the LDP can just reach 120Km to defend air space and effectively retaliate air attacks, those capabilities are too weak.
Assuming the fleet is on a mission to hunt subs close to Malta, there will be no air cover there, and there will be no coastal defence. If the unique ship with a descent air defence capability is the LDP, it can become a prime target for air strikes of the enemie, in order to take out the whole fleet one by one.
Therefore a second / more powerful ship in air defence roles would be required.
This will allow to deteriorate against air threats and to allow smaller and less defended units like the Meko or Tigers to do the ASW job, while also helicopters hunting for the subs can operate while under the umbrella of the LDP and an additional air defence ship.
Few points to remind:
The new ships will not operate in coastal areas; they are designed for other purposes.
The costal air defence umbrella will not cover them.
There is a rational requirement for stronger air cover to allow those smaller units to operate.
4- The whole concept of the renewal of our navy is engineered on a defensive architecture of our sovereign needs on one hand and on the other hand the superiority on our regional neighbours. For this latter task we rely on our submarine forces. The challenge is not higher than this because in front of us there is the most powerful military alliance in the world: NATO. And we want to avoid any confrontation with them.
This again does not reflect the facts on the ground, nor does it reflect the situation with our neighbours.
We buy ships with strong anti surface capabilities like the Meko or the Tigers, but all of them have also good ASW capabilities. Actually the Meko with its jet propulsion system is very silent and therefore designed unit for ASW.
Even the LDP is made for this ASW role with it its ASW suit and the capability to carry many anti ASW helicopters which can operate under its air defence umbrella. None of our neighbours has subs and I heard of none wanting to buy one, therefore this concept of regional superiority can be put aside, as the unique reason for our aquisitions (it does not stand up to examination). The same is true for myth of counter insurgency operations using the LDP, all unfounded given the capabilities of the LDP.
We don’t have any issue with the NATO; we have an issue with Morocco (and French) or with the Israelis. And for those scenarios (Israel in particular), we have a navy which is strong and efficient enough to deter the threat of nuclear armed submarines in our region. Clearly the new generation dolphins with AIP will give them unprecedented capabilities to operate close to our waters. Also to have also better cards in the hand in the case of another Arab-Israeli war, it would be great if we could close down their supply lines. Such a fleet would allow doing so, assuming the air and sub defence are good enough.
On the side with Morocco, it may also make sense to have an outpost in the Atlantic in form an LDP and few subs to cut their supplies. However this would be still very risky for the LDP and to some extent for the kilos, as they have to pass via Gibraltar. Ships send to supply those units have also to pass via Gibraltar as well. Given the recent purchases of the Moroccans, they can close it down for us....but given the proximity of our bases and the AAF we can fight our way through. :rambo4:
Few points to remind:
The ships and its capabilities reflex the wish from Algiers to project power. To complete this wish, a more capable air defence ship is required.
The countries we want to project power on are Morocco and Israel.
We want to deter also NATO operations in our sphere of influence.
5- At last I do not believe on several acquisition of fremm fregates orizonte but more on mekos and light fregates which is more in the tradition of the algerian forces which have always operated small and medium sizes vessels but with heavy weaponery.
Well this is how far back you go with the traditions. Are we talking about 1600 or 1700 or are we talking about 1962? In the 80ies we got kilo class subs, which do not show maritime humbleness either.
I would even say the maritime tradition of Algeria is to rule the seas far beyond our cost. This is our true tradition and we shall inchallah re-establish this great tradition of seafarers.
In summary:
In line with this history excursion, I see also the recent acquisitions of OBJ. The lacking piece is still a heavier unit for mainly air defence roles. (I still see the need for a sea unit for land strike roles, as the 4 kilos are not enough in my view).
Therefore the Perry class would be a good match, as it may also allow for ASW-rockets and cruise missiles to be adopted, next to long range air defence/ air interdiction roles. This is why I think we might go for a small destroyer instead.
I think in my small assay, I delivered a wealth of thoughts and aspects our recent acquisitions can be evaluated under.
However assuming there is a plan behind those acquisitions by Algiers, they all point to the fact that future operations of the OBJ will be far away of our shores, 200 miles and more. As we do not have any sea-territorial dispute I would know of, the only all satisfying conclusion for this increase in naval equipment is the wish to project power to our modest sphere of influence, which is also limited by the AAF and its tanker fleet. I would see this sphere as going from Malta into the north Atlantic. This is our current aim and in line with our great naval tradition as well.
Further this corresponds to our bigger weight in the geopolitical context and the ambition of Algiers to become the leading nation in the Maghreb. Therefore we want to be in the position to show our flag and to occupy sea areas prior other nations do so. Thus we still required a bigger fleet, with more capabilities. I am awaiting to see negotiations kicking off with the Italians again, as well the Chinese and possibly the Koreans (even though unlikely).
:+1+:
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